Pastor Turner: "Tulsans are scattered all over the country"
The church was severely damaged by the near-total destruction of Greenwood Avenue during the Tulsa Race Massacre, yet it persevered. In the aftermath of the violence and in the years that followed, Vernon AME assumed an even more central role in the spiritual and social life of the surviving community.
This legacy continues today, led by Vernon's current pastor, Dr. Robert Turner, 38, hailing from Tuskegee, Alabama. In 2017, he moved to Tulsa to work in the public committee for the Graves Investigation of the Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921. A proponent of reparations for survivors and their descendants, as well as for the residents of Greenwood, he has been vocal in the months and weeks leading up to the 100th anniversary of the racial terror attack.
Speaking out against racial terror that targeted his community, Turner often demonstrates weekly at city hall in support of reparations. He recounts a particular incident during the COVID-19 pandemic when he was near the city hall with a "Reparations Now" sign. Despite not yet beginning to discuss reparations, anti-mask protesters began to berate him and hurl insults. Turner simply replied, "This is the day the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it."
Returning to Vernon AME after the incident, Turner prayed for those who had harassed him.
For Vernon AME, reparations—be they financial or emotional—are far from an abstract concept or reason. In the aftermath of the massacre, the church filed an insurance claim but received no compensation (a common occurrence in the community at the time). Turner revealed an old ledger that showed survivors—many of whom had lost their own homes and livelihoods—gave whatever they could to aid the church in paying off its mortgage and rebuilding.
Today, Vernon AME continues to struggle with gentrification, a term Turner prefers to call "urban migration." Turner said, "Our membership is like a suit of their former selves." During COVID-19, the church launched a food program and has been planning a capital campaign. "We heal through work," Turner said. "Even when we're hurt, we strive to assist our neighbors."
On the eve of the centennial, Turner sat down for an interview with Jane Greenway Carr of CNN Opinion and Karlos K. Hill of the University of Oklahoma.
This interview was lightly edited for clarity and flow.
CNN: You're the pastor of the Vernon AME Church, the only building that belonged to Blacks that survived the Holocaust-era before the game. How does it feel standing in a place with such a history?
Pastor Robert Turner: It's humbling standing in a place where survivors lived and built. Walking through the basement where people hid during the Holocaust—it's no longer a museum but continues to be an active place of worship, meditation, and upliftment.
CNN: Are there visible scars from the massacre of 1921 visible at the church?
Turner: Yes, we have a column that bears the signs of fire damage. Recently, we discovered pieces of bricks under the church with burn marks. When they renovated the bathroom, construction workers reported smelling smoke and finding charred earth. We still have these remnants.
CNN: What would you say to someone who is learning about the Holocaust or more deeply about the 100th anniversary of the massacre in connection with it?
Turner: I would say this church has seen the worst of America and also the greatness of America, which is the resilience, the faith in God—the faith that no matter what happens, we will rebuild. This church is a relic of a glorious past, heralding a new, wonderful future.
CNN: Do you see physical or spiritual remnants of the events of 1921 in your community today? In both your church congregation and the broader Greenwood community?
Turner: This community is traumatized and only recently began to share this trauma with the world. Before, the Black community was silenced and the white majority was not talking because they knew they had nearly perpetrated a mass murder. As a community, we're only now beginning to talk about the events and their causes. But these wounds must be allowed to heal.
Because we're not yet healed, and now an infection in this unhealed wound is being treated. There were conversations with people like me and others demanding reparations to help heal the wounds.
CNN: You've been addressing city officials every week demanding reparations for survivors and Greenwood residents. Can you describe how and when you started this? Why are we still demanding acknowledgment and reconciliation from our local government?
Turner: I started on September 12, 2018. It was my first Tuesday outside, the day after the 9/11 anniversary. I wanted to remind people that the first terrorist airplane attack against the United States was not on 9/11 or Pearl Harbor—it was Tulsa, Oklahoma. [Turner also discussed in another context how airplanes may have slipped over Greenwood during the massacre, some saying bombing raids occurred, others saying surveillance].
I support the United States taking responsibility for its citizens after the 9/11 and Pearl Harbor attacks. But what about the residents of Greenwood? The nation still hasn't assumed responsibility. That's wrong. The sin prompted God to move my spirit and open my heart to speak out every Tuesday in city hall. I go out every Tuesday and bring them Bible studies. I've read the same passage, Isaiah 61, every week. I love this city, and I still love Tulsa.
God loves Tulsa. I call this city love, recognizing that what it did was an act of massacre--a racial holocaust--and repentance is needed. Forgiveness is not repentance. Repentance means letting go of what you apologize for and making amends. You fix the damage you've caused. Tulsa hasn't made amends yet.
CNN: In the place where you serve as pastor and where history intertwines, where are your heart and understanding in this moment, regardless of the year, with George Floyd's murder and 100 years since this event?
Turner: My heart and understanding are filled with indignation that justice still hasn't been served. Justice for George Floyd is still not done. We haven't yet experienced justice.
As pastor at this church and particularly a pastor of this community's grandmother, this tragedy continues to be a burden that needs to be corrected.
People say, "That was a long time ago," but we live today with this trauma and the effects of that trauma. It's now our generation's responsibility to correct the injustice of the Holocaust and ensure it never happens again. If we can admit now that it was wrong then, we should also admit now that it's time to take action.
CNN: What is your vision or hope for the future of Tulsa?
Turner: I believe that without reparations, true reconciliation and healing cannot be achieved. Reparation is a biblical form of reconciliation and healing. I believe Tulsa can do it. Some Tulsans want it. I only hope that our elected officials have the courage to do what they believe in.
Tulsans aren't traveling to most parts of the country for observations or events, but many Americans will be in Tulsa this week. What would you say to them?
Turner: I would say they should learn from Tulsa. I would say this city is not unusual. We all have Tulsas in each state, places of Black excellence where violence occurred. There may not have been as many bodies, but people died, homes were destroyed, and justice was not fully served. The sin of Tulsa is what's terrible. This is an American city with a horrific history of racism. Sadly, like most American cities.
It's our responsibility to fix this problem. You know? Instead of correcting it in certain areas, we need to create a movement and teach it. As only recently started to teach it a few days ago. I encourage Tulsans and others who are watching to look to Tulsa, consider Tulsa, recognize the trauma and injustice that happened there, and help us fight for justice, but also understand that there are many Tulsans out there who haven't experienced justice and whose stories remain unknown.
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- Follow us on Twitter and Facebook CNN: Most of the country won't be traveling to Tulsa and participating in observations or events, but many Americans will visit this week. What would you say to them?
Turner: I would say they should learn from Tulsa. I would say this city is not unusual. We all have Tulsas in every state, places of Black excellence where violence occurred. There may not have been as many bodies, but people died, homes were destroyed, and justice was not fully served. The sin of Tulsa is what's terrible. This is an American city with a horrific history of racism. Sadly, like most American cities.
It's our responsibility to fix this problem. You know? Instead of correcting it in certain areas, we need to create a movement and teach it. As only recently started to teach it a few days ago. I encourage Tulsans and others who are watching to look to Tulsa, consider Tulsa, recognize the trauma and injustice that happened there, and help us fight for justice, but also understand that there are many Tulsans out there who haven't experienced justice and whose stories remain unknown.
[1] Martin, C., "The Legacy of the Tulsa Race Riot," The New York Times, July 17, 2001, [2] "6th Annual Ladies of Leisure Women Empowerment Event," Vernon AME Church, [3] "Eddie Faye Gates Tulsa Race Massacre Collection," The University of Tulsa,
